Possibly the only thing more likely to divide a group of Christians than the topic of hell is their opinion of Rob Bell on the topic of hell. Youthwork editor Martin Saunders caught up with the controversial author to talk about his new book – What we talk about when we talk about God – and whether or not he regrets the previous one.
YW What’s really interesting you in the world right now? RB I am reading the new book about Banksy. At one point the journalist says ‘I know who he is, but I’m not telling.’ And what’s really interesting is that they posted a picture of him in Jamaica, and there was an outcry of people who didn’t want to know his true identity – so the writer covers this. The British public was basically like, don’t publish pictures of him – we’re not interested. It’s part of our love for him.
YW Do you think that’s because we all love mystery?
RB Wouldn’t you be fascinated to know who he is? If I said he was in the next room – wouldn’t you want to know? If I could have lunch with anybody, it would be Banksy. But you’re right – people think the mystery is better.
YW You obviously spend a lot of time engaging with culture, TV, music and film…
RB Well I think people are interesting, I think that the world is interesting. I think that the things people make are fascinating. So I don’t think about the word ‘culture’ so much, or ‘trying to engage’. I simply find the world we are in interesting. And I am endlessly fascinated with what people choose to do with their energies. There’s this great Catholic priest called Ronald Rolheiser who talks about how spirituality is what you do with your energies – that you have essentially been infused by God given energies – and the question is: what are you going to do with them? It is riveting what people make. Why do we as humans make things? We just don’t stop making things, whether it’s furniture or landscaping or new products that are better than the iteration before that. You don’t have to go very far in our faith tradition to realise that even the opening poem is about a creator who makes things in his image. Even that we make things is a clue, a hint, a sign – it says something about the world. If you landed here from another planet you would see that there is something within these people - they are driven to make things. And a lot of things they make aren’t efficient, they have no purpose. They are just beautiful. They are pointless and that’s the point. The gratuitous need to make beautiful, interesting, mysterious, compelling things…it’s fascinating.
YW What is your new book about?
RB Your smart, educated, cynical, extremely-connected-with-the-modern-world atheist friend – what book do you give them? There are a lot of people who feel that they just can’t do the ‘God-Jesus-thing’. And yet the denial approach, the you-are-just-a-random-collection-of-atoms biology doesn’t work either, because their kid was born or they were hiking and the sun went down and they felt something. So a lot of people have a sense of reverence humming inside them. There’s the cliché of being spiritual but not religious. What people mean by this is that they can’t do the denial route, but the communities who are supposed to lead them further into this ‘more’ have failed them. They have a sense that there is more but don’t feel that these communities can help. These are the people I am writing to.
YW So in some senses the book is evangelistic, but it might also be called ‘pre-evangelistic’ – would you agree?
RB For some people just the idea that we are not alone is a massive step. For some people the idea that not all Christians are complete lunatics is a revelation. For some people the idea that there might be something beyond when we die - is a mind-blowing proposition. So, Jesus and a personal relationship – for so many people that’s 50 clicks away. Some people say: ‘Oh if they would only come to church then God would start working on them.’ Do you know how many steps it would take to get some people to church? For lots of people, just the idea that there might be a God is huge.
YW I think it’s a brilliant book for those who might not be initially interested in going to church.
RB Well I’m trying to do a lot more than just get people into church. I’m trying to give people a way to think in which their eyes might be opened to the holiness and the sacredness of the world. The whole world is a temple. One of the things in the book I talk about is that Jesus dying on the cross is a huge step for human consciousness. We build temples in order to understand the holy and sacred, but then we have to tear down the temples – in some respects – or else we end up with holy space and common space. Christian worship is something very different – it’s when your eyes are opened and your senses heightened to the depth of real life. It’s never just a meal, it’s never just an embrace – there’s always more.
YW You start off with an incredible section about science and faith – did you start off writing a different book?
RB A lot of the discussion about God begins with some assumptions that should probably be challenged. For example, the idea that there is a line between the spiritual and the material world. Well of course we have the hard cold material world, and then there may be this spiritual world. But what’s interesting is that science is saying that this hard cold world of clothes and chairs is actually made up of atoms and atoms do some very weird things. So that line may not even exist, and it’s all way more interesting than we first thought. Subatomic particles disappear in one place and reappear somewhere else without travelling the distance in between. And this is happening billions of times a second in our bodies. And people say: ‘No, people don’t rise from the dead!’ And you can just say, really? Because really strange things happen billions of times a second. It’s less about science and faith and more about things that we cannot explain.
YW About five years ago you released Love Wins which a lot of people read, and a lot of people didn’t read and made judgements upon. How do you feel about that time looking back? Is there anything you wish you had expressed differently?
RB Is there something new in the book I am not aware of? I wasn’t aware that there was anything in it that was particularly new or controversial. The Christian faith is a really broad stream – Origen, C.S.Lewis – we all belong in this wide stream. So the fact that somebody would think that it’s a wild departure from the faith, I don’t understand that.
YW I think some people read it as saying: Rob Bell thinks there’s no hell.
RB It’s funny because I talk about how I think there’s a hell. What more can you do apart from saying it?
YW So your reflection is that it was part of your journey, and you are glad you said what you said?
RB I got a few letters from people who were suicidal. They said that the book made them realise something: that over the years they had picked up an image of God as someone who would decide at any moment that they deserved to be punished forever: that the universe is not a safe place, and that they were very close to an eternity of torment. For them, the book revealed where that idea had come from. Having read the book, they were no longer thinking about ending their lives. So do I regret writing it? No.
And the second thing is that at some point you wake up and have the day ahead of you, and realise that you are fine. All of the horrible things people can say about you lose their power. People can call you a heretic, but that loses its power. And you can become free at some level. You can find a joy that cannot be explained. All of our fears are bound up in people liking us, thinking we are smart, thinking we have credibility – and then when people say lots of things to the contrary you sort of have to die to that need. And then you are free from it. So in this past year and a half, I have encountered joy that I can’t begin to put into words.
To hear Martin’s interview with Rob Bell, download the podcast.
