Q&A: Ishmael

JC: How did you get into children’s work? You started off in a punk band…

I: Ishmael United were gigging in Holland and touring venues where you would never expect to find believers and playing songs with overtly Christian lyrics. During the daytimes we performed in some schools and then in the evening we’d travel to these nightclubs and concert halls. One of these gigs was at a club in Rotterdam, which I believe was called The Golden Sunflower. The venue was very dark apart from the stage lighting and halfway through we had a break when some dim house lights came on and it was then I recognised some of these young girls from the school where we had been singing earlier in the day, but now they were being ‘used’ by the men in this club.

It broke my heart. I remember going outside and shouting to God: ‘Why on earth are you allowing this to happen? What’s going on?’ It was then that God seemed to say to me, ‘Don’t you think that this happens back in the UK?’ Although I had children of my own I didn’t have a clue; I’d never ministered to them. I’d always spent my time with young people. It was then that God seemed to continue to speak to me, saying that in the near future he was going to lead me into doing a very different kind of ministry.

Soon after the band wound up I approached Spring Harvest and asked if they would allow me to lead the 8-11s children’s group. My children had always enjoyed the children’s meetings at Spring Harvest but musically these meetings were largely limited to a keyboard and acoustic guitar. It was well done with the resources they had, but I was keen to bring in some major changes if given the chance.

I asked if they would give my team a trial for a year and see how we got on. In that first year I brought in a rock band, which was brand new to Spring Harvest’s children’s work. Why should the Big Top have all the best music? One week I invited three drummers to play in the band at the same time. It was rather loud but very rhythmic and the children loved it.

I didn’t always get things right, though. I remember one year the theme at Spring Harvest was ‘The Power and the Glory’. It was built around the gifts of the Spirit. I assumed wrongly that the adult meetings would start with salvation and they’d go on to being filled with the Holy Spirit, including maybe tongues, interpretation, prophecy and gradually working through to raising the dead on day seven!

On the second night we had the most amazing evening, where I taught the children what the scriptures said about being filled with the Holy Spirit. Keen to see what God wanted to do, I invited anyone that really loved Jesus, who wanted more of the power of Jesus in their lives, to come and stand in line. Nearly everybody responded. It wasn’t far short of 1,000 children.

The team and I couldn’t possibly pray for them all individually, so I asked the children to put their hands on the shoulder of the person next to them. I was hoping and praying that if I prayed for the one at the end of the line God would do a domino effect and minister down each line and fill each child right to the back of the hall with his Spirit. All the team and I had to do was stand back and watch God do what he wanted to do. I thought it was brilliant; it was like revival.

I went back to my chalet rejoicing, but within an hour I had lots of parents queuing up to speak to me, demanding me to explain what I had done to their child who had returned speaking in different languages! I tried to explain that I had done nothing except say a short prayer, but that did not seem to answer their question. It seems that while I taught on tongues on night two, the big top was not going to mention tongues until night seven! Needless to say, I was summoned before the executive to try and explain myself.

JC: In the 35 years you’ve been doing children’s work, what are the big things you’ve seen change?

I: Musically it has developed incredibly. Over the years I recorded lots of kids’ albums, but I was worried that some musicians were jumping on the children’s music bandwagon thinking it was a quick way to make a few bucks and get popular. Suddenly, lots of people who in the past had shown no interest in working with children were recording children’s albums, but sadly, in my opinion, a lot of the songs didn’t really relate to children. It wasn’t long, though, before these singers and writers moved on to worship music. which was to be the next craze. However, there were a few genuine, very good children’s albums made by musicians who did have a heart for children and it was very exciting to see this developing away from just Ishmael’s music for children.

Today my worry is that I think there’s less and less Bible is being taught. In our day we didn’t have all the big screens; we had to rely upon overhead projectors and live music: not videos or DVDs. The screen can be inspirational, but it also can be the biggest distraction. It cannot replace the actual idea of a child holding a Bible in their hands. Holding on to a physical word of God and loving that book is so important.

I hope today we are not breeding a generation of lightweight Christians who really have no idea of what they believe. It’s great that they’re enjoying life and enjoying their Christianity, but I’m a little worried that they’re not really getting much depth in what they are being taught. We live in the age of looking at screens. I worry that our children’s church gatherings are encouraging even more screen-watching and less real-time participation.

I never liked children just watching our musicians, and would often encourage children to come up and participate with us on the stage. I remember once asking if anyone believed that God was calling them to be a preacher or Bible teacher, and a couple of children put their hands up. So we agreed that they’d preach the next day instead of me, and they nearly put me out of a job! I think there seems to be far more church stage performance nowadays. We tried to never perform at children’s meetings. This was very different from the Ishmael United band days where we had to perform. Although we wanted the children to be entertained, we never wanted to put on a show for them to watch.

JC: When I think back to Ishmael coming to town when I was a child, that felt like a big deal. It doesn’t feel like those big events happen so much nowadays in the same way. Why do you think that is?

I: I think everything has changed. At Spring Harvest, we once had 1,000 children for seven days. Nowadays there are just a few hundred for four or five days. As time has passed, numbers have got smaller, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I do think in our early days it was a pioneering work. God was doing something very special. It was a time when my teams and I were watching, listening and learning. A lot of people have followed on and improved upon what we started.

We were very rough around the edges and often unsure of what we were doing as we had no role models to learn from. Understandably, we made a few mistakes along the way, but we did learn from them. Today I look at Duggie [Doug Horley] and Heather [Thompson] and others, and I see how they’ve taken some things that they might have learnt from those early days in the Glorie Company a step or even a few steps further, and they’re doing fantastic things that I could never have done.

I hate to link to it, but if you imagine Pentecost and you’ve got all those thousands there, but you couldn’t have Pentecost every week. That was a one-off thing and from then on they integrated and smaller groups did similar things. I do think now there are smaller groups doing some wonderful stuff with children. I think the day of the big event really is dying out a bit, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

JC: It’s interesting that you talk about people like Duggie and Heather Thompson, because even if you look at them now they’re a generation older. There doesn’t seem to be people coming in a generation under them, people my age, who are doing that kind of children’s ministry now. Do you think that’s fair?

I: That’s a good point. Of course I look at them as young people and of course you’re right, they’re not so far off my age! With the music worship, Martin [Smith] and Matt [Redman] may still be in great demand, but there are some young ones coming through. But even these young ones aren’t what we would call particularly young ones.

I can’t remember the last time I sat and listened to a young Bible teacher, worship leader or children’s team leader in their teens or early twenties. Hopefully there are some around. Maybe the national/international travelling ministry is something of the past; maybe that’s not the way God’s doing things now. Maybe he wants people as witnesses in their employment and to use them more in their local churches. Maybe national and international itinerant ministries have had their day.

JC: Looking back on all you’ve learnt and seen, and things like Messy Church and Godly Play, would you have done anything differently in hindsight?

I: As an older guy reflecting, I probably would have done things more safely! There were no health and safety rules in my day. I think because the Glorie Company was so revolutionary and radical, today as its leader I might try and be a bit more gentle in the way I’d do things. The Glorie Company was very in your face. If people disagreed with what we were doing, we’d still go ahead and do it. I firmly believed that if God was doing something and people objected, let them object!

We did get into a bit of trouble for our ministry with children but we were breaking a mould, so that was to be expected. If I were to do that again I think I would do things in a more loving, listening, gentle way, but I wouldn’t change what I did. Hindsight is a great thing, but if I had done things in a different way would I still have seen God do such great things in these children or would I have been compromising to please adults and restricted what God wanted to do?

JC: Conversely, what do you think we could learn from all the things you did?

I: I think my big thing is still evangelism. I think we should consider if Sunday services are really working for children. While many Christian adults enjoy attending the Sunday service, their children will need to be accommodated, but is a Sunday service ever going to reach children who are not churched? Sunday morning has a lot to offer: it’s a time for sport, football, cycling and other fitness activities. It is also a day when many from broken homes visit their mothers and fathers. People have this idea about keeping Sunday special, but I’ve never had that concept. Every day is special. We have six other days that may be far better to hold a church for children.

In the late 90s, large numbers attended kids’ churches on a Saturday in Liverpool and other places. They were very successful. But still it was thought that a child would have to attend a Sunday service to be a real Christian. This way of thinking frightened many of them off. I’ve always taught that the Church has to adapt to fit in with their community not the other way round. If their best day for children’s church is any other of the six days, let’s hold our meetings then. All the time we expect the world to change and fit in with us and our traditions, but Jesus said go to the world and make disciples.

JC: The interesting thing about a lot of the stuff you did is that it came out of this punk scene. In the Christian world it was terrifying and people didn’t know what was going on. I guess that might have led to the kind of success that it was; it was something edgy and it caught the imagination. Do you think the Church almost needs to find its edge and be prepared to be dangerous again?

I: Yes, maybe. I don’t think edgy needs to be anything that’s really going to upset too many people, although it will always upset some. I think I’ve probably upset enough people over the pioneering years with children to cover all that; I don’t think anyone else needs to do it again! What was deemed radical when we began is now generally accepted. Admittedly, some things we did right and some things we did wrong, but I do think that we’ve paved the way for moving forward in our thinking so far as the ministry and importance of children in the Church.

The other big thing for me is the whole idea of ‘church’ is not just a place to invite children into; it’s far more important to realise that it is a place to send children out from.

Just like Jesus and the disciples, our job is to teach, train, pastor and look after children, and then kick them back into the world to go and share it with their friends. When they return we can ask them how they got on and hear their stories and then pray, worship and teach them more, and then kick them out again.

Sadly, the Church seems to have lost its vision for sending children out. We’re always more interested in trying to drag them in. Numbers attending services should not be the major issue. Kids are much better evangelists than we are.

JC: When you look at that model of children’s ministry that you did and that kind of hype, it could be considered emotionally manipulative for children. How did you avoid that?

I: Today I am far more emotional than I used to be. My aim was to teach children scripture through word and song and then stand back and see what God wanted to do. I wasn’t into the heavy emotional stuff. Sometimes we may have got a bit too enthusiastic, but when ministering to children I tried not to be too influenced by some of the pressured situations that was going on all around me in the adult Charismatic movement. I’d always encourage, but tried not to be too heavy-handed and definitely not manipulative. My team was instructed to always have a smiling face if they prayed for a child, and at big events no one ever left the main auditorium to pray for anyone. Everyone stayed visible so we could see what was being done.

All Ish’s CDs and songs can be bought or downloaded from his website here. Ish can be contacted at Ishmael@ishmael.org.uk